Comments on: How to Save the Web, Part Two http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/ The official AllPeers blog Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:03:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2 By: amnon http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-132779 amnon Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:25:35 +0000 http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-132779 I recommend taking a look at <a href="http://jnext.org" rel="nofollow">http://jnext.org</a> which uses existing technologies to achieve native extensions to JavaScript. It is cross platform, cross browser, and can be easily extended using any language. I recommend taking a look at http://jnext.org which uses existing technologies to achieve native extensions to JavaScript. It is cross platform, cross browser, and can be easily extended using any language.

]]> By: Matt http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131843 Matt Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:28:26 +0000 http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131843 Enefekt - actually I wanted to emphasize the Flex angle in my post, so it's nice to have at least someone bring it up in the comments. Perhaps I should have called my post "Should Mozilla Drop XUL for MXML?". >:-) Enefekt - actually I wanted to emphasize the Flex angle in my post, so it’s nice to have at least someone bring it up in the comments. Perhaps I should have called my post “Should Mozilla Drop XUL for MXML?”. >:-)

]]> By: enefekt http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131833 enefekt Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:16:05 +0000 http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131833 Brendan: The Nokia N800 runs a complete version of Flash Player 9. Adobe is talking more about "device convergence" (http://aralbalkan.com/1072) with Flash Player 10, so you're probably right that they'll try and optimize that further. I am not making any negative comments on ES4, or arguments suggesting separate ES3/ES4 VMs are a good idea. Just saying that I'm enjoying many of the benefits of ECMAScript 4 right now (And a user-interface markup language), in my day-to-day development targeting Flash Player, which runs on multiple browsers and platforms, and can interoperate very well with JavaScript. Not talking about the future, but right now. I apologize, don't mean to be gushing so much on Flex/ActionScript, but I figured since it was brought up in the post it was relevant. Brendan: The Nokia N800 runs a complete version of Flash Player 9. Adobe is talking more about “device convergence” (http://aralbalkan.com/1072) with Flash Player 10, so you’re probably right that they’ll try and optimize that further.

I am not making any negative comments on ES4, or arguments suggesting separate ES3/ES4 VMs are a good idea. Just saying that I’m enjoying many of the benefits of ECMAScript 4 right now (And a user-interface markup language), in my day-to-day development targeting Flash Player, which runs on multiple browsers and platforms, and can interoperate very well with JavaScript. Not talking about the future, but right now.

I apologize, don’t mean to be gushing so much on Flex/ActionScript, but I figured since it was brought up in the post it was relevant.

]]> By: Brendan Eich http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131811 Brendan Eich Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:49:40 +0000 http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131811 enefekt: great, nothing against the Flash 9 pragmatic decision to ship AVMs 1 and 2 -- as I noted this doesn't fit on Mobile targets, so FlashLite is just 1, and my understanding is that any future Flash for mobile will be an evolution of Tamarin that handles both AS2 and AS3 content. Again, there's not enough room for two default "JS" VMs on all target platforms, and ES4 doesn't require any such thing. /be enefekt: great, nothing against the Flash 9 pragmatic decision to ship AVMs 1 and 2 — as I noted this doesn’t fit on Mobile targets, so FlashLite is just 1, and my understanding is that any future Flash for mobile will be an evolution of Tamarin that handles both AS2 and AS3 content.

Again, there’s not enough room for two default “JS” VMs on all target platforms, and ES4 doesn’t require any such thing.

/be

]]> By: enefekt http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131667 enefekt Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:55:01 +0000 http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131667 Brendan: To me the main point is that we have a Flash Player that works great and is backwards compatible. I'm sure there are some use-cases where the two VMs need to interoperate, but I have only run into one so far, and use of LocalConnection has worked just fine to communicate between the two. Brendan: To me the main point is that we have a Flash Player that works great and is backwards compatible. I’m sure there are some use-cases where the two VMs need to interoperate, but I have only run into one so far, and use of LocalConnection has worked just fine to communicate between the two.

]]> By: Brendan Eich http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131439 Brendan Eich Tue, 06 Nov 2007 02:31:57 +0000 http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131439 Silverlight supporting IronPython and IronRuby in 1.1 is good for drawing developer interest away from Flash. It's not quite as real as "Python" (meaning C-Python) being an alternative language for web scripting. The latter (or "Ruby", or Ada98...) is a ton of work that would have to be done in the runtime and all the browsers that embed it. IronPython uses the .NET framework classes, WPF or whatever's going these days. That's not quite the same as the C-Python standard library, as far as I can tell. Anyway, it's years too soon to plan on any second language supported on a common VM to the extent that you could use it instead of JS. Many years. It's like planning on replacing C++ soon with some "managed" version or other language (D). Unreal, in a word. /be Silverlight supporting IronPython and IronRuby in 1.1 is good for drawing developer interest away from Flash. It’s not quite as real as “Python” (meaning C-Python) being an alternative language for web scripting. The latter (or “Ruby”, or Ada98…) is a ton of work that would have to be done in the runtime and all the browsers that embed it.

IronPython uses the .NET framework classes, WPF or whatever’s going these days. That’s not quite the same as the C-Python standard library, as far as I can tell.

Anyway, it’s years too soon to plan on any second language supported on a common VM to the extent that you could use it instead of JS. Many years. It’s like planning on replacing C++ soon with some “managed” version or other language (D). Unreal, in a word.

/be

]]> By: Matt http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131356 Matt Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:17:40 +0000 http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131356 <blockquote> Your use of "simply" is comic. Where is the runtime and VM that runs both Python and ECMAScript 3 scripts? </blockquote> It's my understanding that both the Microsoft VM and Tamarin are slated to support both languages and others. <blockquote> The whole "Why evolve JS, just switch to MyFavoriteLanguage" strawman is silly. By all means join a standards body and propose a new standard scripting language for Web browsers, otherwise it’s armchair fantasy. </blockquote> Hey, my favorite language is C++ and I'm not arguing that we make that the lingua franca of the web. :-) Promoting a language just because you have a soft spot for it is silly, but I don't see why the idea of integrating some existing more modern scripting language into browsers is <em>so</em> absurd.

Your use of “simply” is comic. Where is the runtime and VM that runs both Python and ECMAScript 3 scripts?

It’s my understanding that both the Microsoft VM and Tamarin are slated to support both languages and others.

The whole “Why evolve JS, just switch to MyFavoriteLanguage” strawman is silly. By all means join a standards body and propose a new standard scripting language for Web browsers, otherwise it’s armchair fantasy.

Hey, my favorite language is C++ and I’m not arguing that we make that the lingua franca of the web. :-) Promoting a language just because you have a soft spot for it is silly, but I don’t see why the idea of integrating some existing more modern scripting language into browsers is so absurd.

]]> By: Matt http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131354 Matt Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:10:23 +0000 http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131354 Brendan, I'm not saying that JavaScript 2 is a bad idea. As someone who codes in JavaScript regularly, I've been excited by the prospect since I saw your original JS2 slide deck. I'm just saying that I can understand the point of view that argues for pushing Python or whatever. After all, it's at least somewhat controversial whether we need structural types, type annotations, etc. Since I basically accused MS of killing the web in my previous post, I felt like I should clarify. That said, you're right to point out that MS is promoting a heavyweight beast in .NET, which is far less defensible. Brendan,

I’m not saying that JavaScript 2 is a bad idea. As someone who codes in JavaScript regularly, I’ve been excited by the prospect since I saw your original JS2 slide deck.

I’m just saying that I can understand the point of view that argues for pushing Python or whatever. After all, it’s at least somewhat controversial whether we need structural types, type annotations, etc. Since I basically accused MS of killing the web in my previous post, I felt like I should clarify.

That said, you’re right to point out that MS is promoting a heavyweight beast in .NET, which is far less defensible.

]]> By: skierpage http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131345 skierpage Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:50:06 +0000 http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131345 <blockquote>I can’t speak definitively about the challenges of supporting both ES3 and ES4 syntaxes, but this is bound to introduce a fair amount of complexity and redundancy into the scripting engine implementation. Simply adding Python support might be a more sensible path.</blockquote> Your use of "simply" is comic. Where is the runtime and VM that runs both Python and ECMAScript 3 scripts? The whole "Why evolve JS, just switch to MyFavoriteLanguage" strawman is silly. By all means join a standards body and propose a new standard scripting language for Web browsers, otherwise it's armchair fantasy.

I can’t speak definitively about the challenges of supporting both ES3 and ES4 syntaxes, but this is bound to introduce a fair amount of complexity and redundancy into the scripting engine implementation. Simply adding Python support might be a more sensible path.

Your use of "simply" is comic. Where is the runtime and VM that runs both Python and ECMAScript 3 scripts?

The whole "Why evolve JS, just switch to MyFavoriteLanguage" strawman is silly. By all means join a standards body and propose a new standard scripting language for Web browsers, otherwise it’s armchair fantasy.

]]> By: Brendan Eich http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131343 Brendan Eich Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:46:38 +0000 http://www.allpeers.com/blog/2007/11/05/how-to-save-the-web-part-two/#comment-131343 enefekt: Mozilla 2 gives us a chance to break API compatibility, but we're mainly focused on C++ API compatibility, since that lets us deCOMtaminate. Firefox addons may need to be reworked even from Firefox 2 to 3 as you probably know. But in practice this is not a problem, and we are not so suicidal or free to fiddle gratuitously that we would break out most critical platform. I know the AVM developers well, and they did not want to ship two VMs. They indeed suffered a code footprint hit, but fortunately they do share one memory manager (MMgc). They admit to interop bugs between the two VMs, and aspire to get everything mapped via compiler versioning onto Tamarin. So that's a counterexample. Thanks for pointing it out ;-). /be enefekt: Mozilla 2 gives us a chance to break API compatibility, but we’re mainly focused on C++ API compatibility, since that lets us deCOMtaminate. Firefox addons may need to be reworked even from Firefox 2 to 3 as you probably know. But in practice this is not a problem, and we are not so suicidal or free to fiddle gratuitously that we would break out most critical platform.

I know the AVM developers well, and they did not want to ship two VMs. They indeed suffered a code footprint hit, but fortunately they do share one memory manager (MMgc). They admit to interop bugs between the two VMs, and aspire to get everything mapped via compiler versioning onto Tamarin.

So that’s a counterexample. Thanks for pointing it out ;-).

/be

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